COMMISSIONER: Are there any further witnesses who will be required the services of an interpreter, Mr Fitzgerald are ...(intervention)

MR FITZGERALD: Mr Commissioner, Mr Strydom was going to use the interpreter, but he's decided that he will give evidence in English, but if he has any difficulty either you or I will hopefully help him out with an Afrikaans word.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for coming to help us out. You've done it very nicely. Thank you.

Your witness, Mr Fitzgerald.

MR FITZGERALD: Mr Commissioner, the next witness will be Pieter Strydom.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Strydom, what are you full names, please?

MR STRYDOM: Pieter Coenraad Strydom.

COMMISSIONER KING: Sorry, your second Christian name?

MR STRYDOM: Coenraad.

COMMISSIONER: Do you have an objection to taking the oath?

PIETER COENRAAD STRYDOM (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR FITZGERALD: Thank you. Mr Strydom, you grew up in the Eastern Cape. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You went to school at Grey College, fortunately, in Port Elizabeth and not in Bloemfontein.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Grey College or Grey High School?

MR STRYDOM: Grey High School in P.E.

MR FITZGERALD: And your first-class debut for Eastern Province was during the 1987/1988 season.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Your debut for Border was during the 1992/1993 season.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You've been captain of Border since the 1996/1997 season.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And you were first selected for South Africa in the summer of 1999/2000.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: It was during the - your first test, I understand was against the English.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you play one-day internationals against the English?

MR STRYDOM: I did.

MR FITZGERALD: You're not currently a member of the South African squad.

MR STRYDOM: No.

MR FITZGERALD: Your, as I understand more specifically, the first Test that you played for South Africa was the five-day test at Centurion Park against England earlier this year.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And you are also part of the South African team which travelled to India in March of this year.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MR FITZGERALD: Now before dealing with specific incidents, can I ask you, for how long have you know Hansie Cronje?

MR STRYDOM: Well, Grey Bloem and Grey P.E. used to play against each other quite a lot, well once a year. So I probably played about 3 or 4 games against him during my schooling, and then in 1987 I played South African Schools with him. He was my Captain for the South African Schools side.

MR FITZGERALD: And how would you describe your relationship with him?

MR STRYDOM: Very good. We were good friends. We had a good relationship, but it could only really be a cricket relationship because obviously he's in Bloemfontein and I was in East London. And then we did play cricket against each other, but not on such a regular basis. Obviously he had International duties to fulfil.

MR FITZGERALD: Whereas you played, until recently, mainly Provincial cricket?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Now as you said, you were a member of the South African team which played against England at Centurion Park.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: I think it's common cause that the match was something of a - at least the first 4 days were something of a non-event, and there was a lot of play interrupted by rain.

MR STRYDOM: That's right.

MR FITZGERALD: I think it's also common cause that on the morning of the fifth day of the Test, an arrangement was reached whereby there would be declarations and a target was set for England.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: During the course of the morning of the fifth day of the Test did you have any occasion when you spoke to Hansie Cronje at all?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did.

MR FITZGERALD: Can you describe to the Commission what was discussed?

MR STRYDOM: After the decision had been taken to declare, just in passing Hansie came to me and we just spoke to me, and he said to me, jokingly, 'You wonder what the odds would be for a result for South Africa to win'. And I said that you know, I had a mate that was - he was quite an active gambler and I'd give him a ring and see if I can find out any odds. And then Hansie said to me, 'Well, if you do get odds, can you put on', I think it was R50, and I said, 'Well, I'll - '.

So I phoned my mate and I said to him that - I conveyed to him if he can find any odds, and said, 'If you do get any odds, can you put on R50 for me and R50 for Hansie to win the - for South Africa to win the Test match?' My friend then phoned me back a short while later, and he said to me, 'There are no odds available', and that's the last I heard of it.

MR FITZGERALD: Have you ever bet on any cricket match in which you've been involved?

MR STRYDOM: I've never, ever bet on a cricket match, but when I was in England, 'cause I go and play cricket - not County Cricket but League Cricket in England, and at times I have got like - you can have odds for to see who'll be the top batsman of the season. And I have bet on myself to try and be the top batsman of the season.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you ever win that bet?

MR STRYDOM: No.

COMMISSIONER: You should have taken an each way bet, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: I still wouldn't have won.

MR FITZGERALD: Mr Strydom, can we go to India, is it correct you were selected to play for South Africa in the first Test against India at Mumbai?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: That was in fact your second Test in international cricket.

MR STRYDOM: That's right.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you have any discussions with Mr Cronje before the game?

MR STRYDOM: Yes. He did call me up to his room. I think it was the day before, 'cause I knew I was in the team already, and he called me up to his room and said to me, in a very lighthearted manner, that I can get R70 000 if we get less than 250. I said to him, 'No', but I did say that if I played 80 or 90 Tests that maybe I would have tried to think about it now.

MR FITZGERALD: As your first Test was at the age of 30, that would have taken you to possibly the most ancient international cricketer of all times.

MR STRYDOM: Especially at the rate I'm playing Test matches, one a year.

MR FITZGERALD: And what was the further discussion that you had?

MR STRYDOM: It wasn't long at all. It was 5 to 10 minutes, and I mean, I've always known Hansie as to be a bit of a practical joker as well. And I didn't really - when I was in the room, when I said, 'No', he didn't put any pressure on me to say, 'Yes', or anything like that. And when I walked out the room, I actually thought to myself, 'Shit', ooh, sorry, 'maybe I've passed the test. Maybe he was testing me to see whether I wanted to take a bet, or something like that.' So I was actually feeling quite good about myself.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you speak to him at all later that morning or that day?

MR STRYDOM: It was either later that day, I think it was later that day that he did walk past me, the whole team were going somewhere, and he just like nudged me, and it was even more lighthearted then the first time, and he just nudged me and he said, 'Hey, how about 140?' And I said, 'No ways.' And he just laughed.

MR FITZGERALD: As it happened in that Test, South Africa did go out for less then 250. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you speak to him at all after the game?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, I went to him after the game and I said, 'Shit, Hansie, we could have made a lot of bucks here.'

MR FITZGERALD: At any time did Mr Cronje ever divulge to you the identity of the person who had made the offer?

MR STRYDOM: No, he didn't.

MR FITZGERALD: I understand that you next considered the matter, as it were, sorry - did Mr Cronje make any other approaches to you at any time on that tour?

MR STRYDOM: I never heard anything. Hansie never, ever came to me during any of the one-day internationals, and I never heard about it during the rest of the tour. The next time I heard about it was when the news broke, that was on the 7^th of April.

MR FITZGERALD: Yes, just to confirm, save for the incident before the first Test, when Mr Cronje approached you, there were no other approaches made to you.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Now, as you say, the news broke on the 7^th of April.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Is it correct that during the course of that day Bronwyn Wilkinson contacted you?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Bronwyn phoned me around lunch time, 12 o'clock, on the Friday afternoon, and said that myself, Hansie, Herschelle and Nicky had been implicated in match-fixing. She did say to me that it was a serious matter, and she said I must switch my phone off, 'cause you'll be getting a lot of calls', which I did. And I went to go and play golf, 'cause at this stage I wasn't 100% sure if it was. I mean, I presumed - well - when I got back from golf and I got 40 messages on my phone, then I realised you know, this could be true.

MR FITZGERALD: One of those messages was from Bronwyn Wilkinson.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You phoned her back?

MR STRYDOM: I phoned her and she asked me if I've been involved in match-fixing, and I said, 'No'. And she asked me to phone Dr Bacher.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you phone Dr Bacher?

MR STRYDOM: I did, but before I phoned Dr Bacher I gave Hansie a ring, and I just wanted to know what was going on. I just asked him why my name was mentioned, and he said no, well he's just throwing around a few names because he was being pressurised. And he said the stuff that's going on has got nothing to do with the Test, the Test in Mumbai, so I've got nothing to worry about, the whole furore was about the third and fifth, I think, one-day internationals. So he said I've got nothing to worry about.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you phone Dr Bacher?

MR STRYDOM: I did phone Dr Bacher, ja. Dr Bacher asked me if I was involved in match-fixing, and I said, 'No'.

MR FITZGERALD: Now on Tuesday the 11^th of April, as it were, there were further revelations from Mr Cronje, we know that he admitted to certain irregularities.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You weren't with the team at that time, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: No, I was omitted from the - they were playing the one-day series against Australia.

MR FITZGERALD: What did you do once these revelations had been made? Did you contact anybody?

MR STRYDOM: I did phone Herschelle just to find out what was happening, because Herschelle's name was mentioned and I didn't have Nicky's number. I would probably have phoned him as well if I - but I had Herschelle's number, so I just phoned Herschelle and found out what was happening, and he told me that he'd been approached to get under 20. And that's when I got a bit of a fright.

MR FITZGERALD: Is it correct that later that day you were contacted by Bronwyn Wilkinson?

MR STRYDOM: On - I think it was the Tuesday, she did phone me and ask me if I was ever approached by anyone, and I did say, 'No'.

MR FITZGERALD: Why did you say 'No' at that stage?

MR STRYDOM: Well, with no disrespect to Bronwyn, I've never met her before, she did say to me on the phone that she was from the UCB, but I mean, I'd got like 46 phone calls already and it could be anyone, so I just wanted to go through the right channels.

MR FITZGERALD: Did you thereafter seek any legal advise, or - ?

MR STRYDOM: Well, after Herschelle had said that he'd been approached to get under 20, I thought maybe, well maybe these transcripts could be right. So I just thought I'm just going to go and see a lawyer friend in East London, and he advised me to go to an Advocate in Grahamstown, and he - I went to go and speak to him and got some legal advice, ja.

MR FITZGERALD: Now is it correct that either later that same day, or in the morning of Wednesday April the 12^th, you contacted March Boucher?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, it was definitely the day before one of the one-day internationals. I was cracking a little bit a home because I was by myself there, and I'd heard on the news that the team had said that they weren't - that no one had bee approached, so I wasn't feeling too strong. So I phoned Mark, 'cause I know Mark, he's from East London, a good friend of mine, and I just asked him for some advice. I told him that I'd been approached, and Mark then told me that him and Jacques had also been approached, so I said, 'What do you think I should do?' You know, and he said, no well, he's going to speak to Goolam, who is our Team Manager, which we had a good relationship with Goolam. So he went and told Goolam the whole story, and the Goolam phoned me back later and I told him the whole story as well.

MR FITZGERALD: You then told Goolam, as you call him, that you'd been approached by Hansie Cronje before the first Five-day Test in Mumbai?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Now the - did you at about that time, or shortly thereafter, have any contact or telephone calls from Hansie Cronje?

MR STRYDOM: After I'd spoken to Goolam, I spoke to Goolam late evening sometime. I know the next day from that phone call, I was phoned by Hansie the next day, and he just phoned to find out how I was, if I was keeping alright, you know, with all this stuff going on. And so I again asked him why my name was mentioned, and again he said, you know, because he was being pressurised and he just threw around some names. And then just a little thing worried me at the end when he - just before he put the phone down, he just said to me, 'Well' - 'cause I said to him I - you know, 'I can't lie, and I'm not prepared to lie in any Commission.' And Hansie said, 'It's fine. You can tell exactly what happened, but just don't mention the money.'

MR FITZGERALD: On Wednesday the 19^th of April, is it correct that you were contacted by Dr Bacher?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: What did he inform you?

MR STRYDOM: Well, I'd realised then that Goolam had spoken to him, obviously on an earlier period, and spoken to - and so Dr Bacher knew about it, and he asked me if I was approached. I said, 'Yes', and he asked me to come up the next day for some meetings.

MR FITZGERALD: And in fact we know that you met with Dr Bacher and others, I think Bronwyn Wilkinson was present, Mr Clifford Green and Richard Harrison, who is I believe and Executive member of the United Cricket Board, you met with them in Johannesburg on the 20^th, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That day after Dr Bacher phoned me.

MR FITZGERALD: Ja, that was the 20^th. If you go to your statement, annexed thereto is a - the minutes of the meeting which took place at Dr Bacher's residence on the 20^th of April. Is that correct, can you just identify those minutes?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You confirm that the contents of those minutes correctly reflects what took place and what you said?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Now is it correct that you also during this period spoke to Mr Robbie Muzzell?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Muzzell is my President of Board of Cricket. He came to me on the Tuesday morning after Hansie - well, after the Hansie story on Tuesday night whatever - the Tuesday morning, I mean. He came to speak to me and Mr Muzzell asked me, and initially I thought it was as a friend and from Border Cricket, he just asked me if I was ever approached and he asked if I was ever involved in match-fixing and I just said, 'No', to him. I said, 'I know nothing about it.' But Mr Muzzell did phone me back later that week, I went, I think it was for the Easter weekend, I went home and he phoned me on the Saturday night, I could like pick up that he knew about it. So they had obviously -the UCB had obviously discussed it and then I told Mr Muzzell everything that had happened.

COMMISSIONER: Just for the record, Mr Gauntlett, am I correct, Mr Muzzell is an Executive member of the United Cricket Board?

MR GAUNTLETT: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman. I'm just checking he is still. Yes, he is.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Well, we'll take a 15 minute adjournment.

PIETER COENRAAD STRYDOM: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FITZGERALD: (Cont)

Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Strydom, you confirmed that other than the approach made to you before the Test match in India, no other approaches were made to you by Mr Cronje to you during that tour.

MR STRYDOM: At no time, no.

MR FITZGERALD: In particular during any of the one-day games.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Because there has been reference in this Commission to a transcript of certain telephone calls allegedly made in India. In a transcript, it is alleged that Mr Sanjay, in discussion with Mr Cronje, asked the question, 'Is Strydom playing?' 'Yes, he is playing, yeah.' I've discussed the date sequence of this alleged conversation and on the assumption that that conversation took place on the 16^th of March of this year, the next one-day game to which that would relate, is the fourth one-day international, which was played on the 17^th of March 2000. I've handed up to you and to the Commission the score cards in respect of the one-day internationals. Could you turn to the score card of the one-day international, the fourth international of the 17^th of March? Do you have it? Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MR FITZGERALD: That was a game which India won by four wickets. Will you just confirm that in the South African innings you did not bat.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: If you turn to page 2 of that extract, you'll get the South African Bowling Analysis.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And you will see that you bowled 9 overs, no maidens, 1 for 48 runs.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: How would you describe your bowling that day?

MR STRYDOM: I was very pleased. I was just glad to be bowling. It's nice.

MR FITZGERALD: And you bowled well, as far as you were concerned?

MR STRYDOM: Very well, ja.

COMMISSIONER: Nothing like self-confidence, Mr Strydom.

MR FITZGERALD: In fact, if one has regard to the Bowling Analysis you, other than perhaps Nicky Boje, you were the most economical of the South African bowlers that day.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And just finally, one notices that although India won by 4 wickets, they won with one ball to spare. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's right.

MR FITZGERALD: One or two final aspects. Do you confirm that you have never personally been involved in match-fixing?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: It is correct, though, that you were approached by Hansie Cronje in that regard.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: Finally, you mentioned that on the fifth day of the Centurion Park Test, you did approach a bookmaker friend of yours to see whether odds could be placed on a South Africa victory.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: With the benefit of hindsight, do you consider that was a correct thing to do?

MR STRYDOM: No, it's a very stupid thing to do. If I had a choice of doing it again, I would never do it again.

MR FITZGERALD: One final thing which I omitted at the beginning of your evidence, you do have before you a statement of your evidence, which you've signed. Can you just identify that, is that your signature, and can we just hand ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: That's mine.

MR FITZGERALD: ...can we hand that up to the Commissioner? I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Gauntlett?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GAUNTLETT: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Strydom, the first inquiry you had from Ms Wilkinson, was that on Friday the - what are we now? - 7^th of April?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, the first time I spoke to Ms Wilkinson?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes. Following the initial revelations which were hitting the Media. Was that on Friday the 7^th of April?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it's the first time I heard about the revelations. She phoned me. Bronwyn phoned me to warn me.

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes, and she also asked you if there was any truth in the story suggesting that you had been involved, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Because your statement suggests a little bit different, puts it a little bit differently, so I'm glad you've confirmed it's in the terms I've just put it to you. It wasn't merely as to whether you were involved, but whether there was any truth in the story suggesting you'd been involved. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: As far as I remember, she just asked me whether I was involved in match-fixing.

MR GAUNTLETT: So the answer you gave me a moment ago, is that not correct?

MR STRYDOM: Can you just repeat that, then?

MR GAUNTLETT: The importance difference is this, that Ms Wilkinson says that what she asked you is - 'Is there any truth in the story which has broken about the match-fixing, your involvement in it?'

MR STRYDOM: Well, when I heard from Bronwyn, what I heard from her and what I perceived her to say to me was that was I involved in match-fixing, and I said to her, 'No'.

MR GAUNTLETT: I see. The first time you disclosed any knowledge regarding the reported events was to the Team Manager, Mr Rajah, was it, and that was on the Wednesday, the 12^th?

MR STRYDOM: That's the first time I disclosed to someone from UCB, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: Did you not think, when Ms Wilkinson, phoned you, you should say, 'Well, yes, I know this. I can disclose this'?

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, no. I was a bit scared, I was scared who I was talking to. I didn't know who I was meant to speak to, so I got some legal advice, and Goolam is someone who I had met, and I have been on tour with him.

MR GAUNTLETT: So really, it also didn't occur to you that if Ms Wilkinson was not the right person to speak to, you should speak to Dr Bacher direct?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you just repeat that?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes. If you had some doubt that you should not perhaps speak initially to Ms Wilkinson, you didn't - it didn't occur to you to pick up a phone and speak to Dr Bacher, who was having to field a considerable number of enquiries relating to these events?

MR STRYDOM: I think if Dr Bacher had phoned me personally, I wouldn't have found it difficult to - but not Bronwyn. I don't know Bronwyn at all.

MR GAUNTLETT: I see. Just for the record, you knew her to be the Communications Manager of the UCB, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: That's what she told me.

MR GAUNTLETT: Well, did you not know that to be so?

MR STRYDOM: No, not before. I had never known before.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now, when you had the meeting with Dr Bacher at his house on Thursday, the 20^th, you've confirmed to the Commission that the minute that's been taken of that meeting is correct. Is that so?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Mr Strydom, as regards Centurion Park, if we may switch to that for a moment, you discussed with Mr Cronje the placing of a bet, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: I suggested that I should try and get the odds for him, to see if I could find any odds.

MR GAUNTLETT: And if you had, you would have placed a bet?

MR STRYDOM: The answer was yes, I probably would have placed that R50 bet, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: You annually receive, do you not, the Code of Behaviour of the UCB. Is that right?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Would you look at this and confirm that it is the current Code of Behaviour?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Could that be passed to the Commissioner? Thank you. I think, Mr Commissioner, I think it's only our second physical exhibit, if Ms Batohi can correct me on that or assist me.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not keeping a record of exhibits, but I'm sure counsel can arrange that between themselves.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now in the Code of Conduct, may I just read this to you? One of the provisions which you receive annually is this:

"A participant shall not engage directly or indirectly in betting, gambling or any form of financial speculation on the outcome of any regulated match."

Why were you trying to do that?

MR STRYDOM: It would have been very silly of me to follow through on that, so I'm glad that no odds were taken. I mean, that there were no odds.

MR GAUNTLETT: Who were the bookmakers?

MR STRYDOM: It was just a friend of mine. It was not a bookmaker. Alex Saffy.

MR GAUNTLETT: What was his name?

MR STRYDOM: Alex Saffy.

MR GAUNTLETT: And is he not a bookie?

MR STRYDOM: No, he's not a bookie.

MR GAUNTLETT: Well, what is he going to do with this request of yours?

MR STRYDOM: He does - I know him to gamble. He's a good friend of mine, and he has - he does place quite a few bets, so I presume that he would know a bookie to phone.

COMMISSIONER: Perhaps what in my day used to be called a bucket shop. He doesn't hold the bets himself. Does he pass it on to somebody else? Or don't you know?

MR STRYDOM: No, well, as far as I know, he just bets. And I presume that he'd know bookies to phone to find out if there were odds.

MR GAUNTLETT: And when you had this discussion with Cronje, was there any hesitation on his part, saying to you, 'Look, can't do this sort of thing.' Anything like that?

MR STRYDOM: Is that the discussion about the betting at Centurion?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes, that's what we're talking about, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Hansie didn't say anything like that. No hesitation or anything like that.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now Mr Strydom, you - reverting to the revelations. You have told us how you were initially telephoned by Ms Wilkinson, and you've said in your statement that she made it plain to you, what I think would have been obvious to you, that the matter was a serious one. Recollect?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, it was serious.

MR GAUNTLETT: What was it precisely that made you more forthcoming between that original call on Friday April the 7^th, and your conversation with the Team Manager, Mr Rajah, on the following Wednesday?

MR STRYDOM: Could you just explain the questions again, please?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes. What made you become forthcoming?

MR STRYDOM: Like, what made me tell what had happened? Well, it's just the - there were certain phone calls that I - 'cause I was alone, by myself in East London, and when I'd spoken to Hansie at first and he said, no well, it's got nothing to do with me, this - all about the one-dayers. And then when I'd spoken to Herschelle and I heard that he had been approached, and I saw this in the paper. So then I just presumed that maybe these things that came over on the newspaper were true. And then when I'd spoken to Mark and he said he'd been approached as well, then I got a bit scared, and I thought I'd get some legal advice, and that's the time when I knew I had to tell someone. And I was wanting to go through the right channels.

MR GAUNTLETT: Alright thank you. So it was that which changed matters for you. Could you just help us with that first conversation with Mr Cronje, that you've just described? We have it that, a little bit earlier in your evidence, you said more specifically that in that conversation when you asked him what was happening, he indicated to you that the allegations related to the third and fifth one-day internationals. Is that right?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Because that's quite important to us, that you have a clear recollection that his answer was to pinpoint those allegations which we can show the Commission at the time as they'd come out in the Media, were devoid of any such pinpointing, that he himself referred specifically to the third and the fifth one-day internationals. Do you remember that?

MR STRYDOM: Can you repeat that again?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes. You have a clear recollection that his reference was specifically to the third and fifth one-day internationals.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now when you asked him why your name was being mentioned, and he offered you what was I thought is a slightly uncomfortable answer, that he'd just thrown around a few names to someone who was pestering him, what was your reaction to him?

MR STRYDOM: Well, I did believe him at first, because - I mean, I've been a Captain as well and if I could - you know, if someone was throwing around names, pestering him, so I just left it at that, that that was the case.

MR GAUNTLETT: I take it that it surprised you that a team Captain if he's being pestered, to somehow deal with the situation, should throw around a few names of team players who obviously would immediately become the subject matter of pestering. Weren't you irritated?

MR STRYDOM: I wasn't happy about, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: Did it occur to you that it seemed a little bit sort of shabby or strange as an explanation?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you repeat that?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes. Did it occur to you that this was a little bit shabby or strange as an explanation for a Captain to give one of his team members?

MR STRYDOM: No. I wouldn't - didn't occur to me, shabby or strange.

MR GAUNTLETT: Well, explain to us the unhappiness to which you've just testified.

MR STRYDOM: Well, I was just unhappy that my name was being thrown around like dirt.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now the unhappiness surely related to the fact that there had been an approach to you by him, not so?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you repeat that again? I must concentrate.

MR GAUNTLETT: The unhappiness related to the fact that there had been an approach by him to you, not so?

MR STRYDOM: I was unhappy that my name had been mentioned. That he'd used my name, thrown my name around.

MR GAUNTLETT: Had you yourself been pestered?

MR STRYDOM: No.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now you've testified to the fact that you also spoke to Dr Bacher on Friday the 7^th of April. Do you remember?

MR STRYDOM: I do.

MR GAUNTLETT: You in fact, phoned him to ask what was happening? Is that right?

MR STRYDOM: No. Bronwyn asked me to phone Dr Bacher, to contact him. And so when I phoned him, he asked me if I was involved. It was very short, I know he was going to speak on the radio, he just asked me was I ever involved in match-fixing, and my answer was, 'No'. And then - 'cause a reporter had just come and rocked up at my house. I just asked him for some advice and what I must say if someone comes, and he gave me something to write down so I can say it to reporters if they come to my house.

COMMISSIONER: Something like, 'No comment', I presume.

MR STRYDOM: I said, 'No comment', the first time and I got slated for that as well.

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes, I think it's clear from what you've indicated earlier, that although you were now talking to Dr Bacher not somebody you say you weren't really sure about, you weren't forthcoming with him at this stage, to say, 'Well, I should really tell you this, Dr Bacher.'?

MR STRYDOM: I just answered what he asked me.

MR GAUNTLETT: Well, what he has recollected and said in a statement before the Commission, is that you phoned him at about 18h30 that evening. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: It could be correct, ja. It was around 6 o'clock, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: "And told me," that's him speaking, "and told me that was no substance to the allegations emanating from Delhi."

MR STRYDOM: Can you repeat that, please?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes, that what you said was more broadly, that as far as you were concerned there's nothing in this - these allegations which were emanating from New Delhi.

MR STRYDOM: What I can recall is just that Dr Bacher asked me have I ever been involved - first of all he said to me, 'Would you lie?', and I said, 'No'. And he said, 'Were you ever involved in any match-fixing?'. I said, 'No'.

MR GAUNTLETT: I think you would fairly accept, Mr Strydom, that really for some of the reasons that you've described, you were being a little economical with the truth at that time. You could have been forthcoming and said, 'Well, this is what I really know, Dr Bacher.' And you only did that after you spoke to the lawyers, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: I did need some advice. I was a bit scared.

MR GAUNTLETT: And so when you spoke to Dr Bacher, you were being economical with the truth.

MR STRYDOM: I answered his question he asked me.

MR GAUNTLETT: I'll ask you one last time, if it's a fair statement, Mr Strydom, that in the answer you gave Dr Bacher, who was desperately dealing with international enquiries, and he turned to you for an answer, that you were being economical with the truth. Is that right or is it wrong?

MR STRYDOM: That would be correct, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now then you spoke, after the advice to the Team Manager, and we know what happened at the meeting on Thursday, April the 20^th, at Dr Bacher's house. Now Mr Strydom, may I ask you one or two other matters very briefly? Would you - you have a copy of your statement, don't you?

MR STRYDOM: I do.

MR GAUNTLETT: Would you be kind enough just to turn to the annexure, which is the minute taken by Ms Wilkinson of the particular meeting at Mr Bacher's home on the 20^th of April, which you attended. It's right at the back, of course. You got it?

MR STRYDOM: I have.

MR GAUNTLETT: Would you be good enough to run your eye about two-thirds down? You will see a question:

"CG: Were you asked if you'd been approached? Bronwyn says she asked you this.

Pieter Strydom: I don't recall, but if I was asked I would have said, 'No'."

Could you explain that answer?

MR STRYDOM: He asked me, this was on the 20^th. I just said that, in hindsight I probably would have still said - if Bronwyn had asked me and the situation arises, exactly the same like it was, I probably would have said, 'No'.

COMMISSIONER: The reason for that being the reason you've already given, Mr Strydom? The reason why you would have said, 'No', is that you didn't know Bronwyn, and you didn't feel that you wished to confide in her, is that - do I understand you correctly?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Mr Strydom, when you were approached in the way you've testified, by Mr Cronje with the money offer that's the - just before the first Test at Mumbai, did you ask, 'Where's this money coming from?'

MR STRYDOM: No.

MR GAUNTLETT: Did you understand, pretty clearly I suppose from what one hears circulating in the Indian sub-continent that it would be from some bookmaking syndicate, or some other set of match-fixers.

MR STRYDOM: I didn't recall that at that stage, no.

MR GAUNTLETT: What crossed your mind? Something must have, Mr Strydom, it wasn't the tooth fairy. What did you think?

MR STRYDOM: Is this when he approached me? Well, I gave my answer. I said, 'No, I'm not interested, 'cause it's my second Test.'

MR GAUNTLETT: It was clear to you that it was not a particularly honest offer? A suggestion of fixing a match?

MR STRYDOM: I'm not actually 100% sure how I took it at that time, because - I mean, Hansie, I have known him to be a practical joker, so it was pretty lighthearted.

MR GAUNTLETT: Now at the end of that game, when you did go out as a team for less than 250 runs, you said something to Cronje along the lines of, 'Well, we could have made some bucks here.' That's correct, isn't it?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR GAUNTLETT: Where did this conversation take place?

MR STRYDOM: I can't recall. It was just in passing, after the game.

MR GAUNTLETT: But you can't recall whether it was in the cloakroom, in your room, in his room?

MR STRYDOM: No, I can't recall.

MR GAUNTLETT: Just the two of you?

MR STRYDOM: No, there could have been - I mean, there weren't many times it was just the two of us. I can't recall when it was. It could have been at any time.

MR GAUNTLETT: Well, Mr Strydom, we don't want to push you in respects in which you genuinely don't have knowledge, but when you say, 'It could have been', we need to know are you saying that as far as you can remember it was just the two of you somewhere, you don't know? Are you saying you have a recollection that there were more people around? What are you saying?

MR STRYDOM: I don't think it was just the two of us, like meeting. It was maybe in passing, but I said it softly so that no one else could hear.

MR GAUNTLETT: Why should you have said it softly so that no on else could hear?

MR STRYDOM: Well, I didn't know if anyone else knew about this. I didn't think anyone else knew, so I didn't want anyone else to know about it.

MR GAUNTLETT: And why didn't you want anybody else to know about it?

MR STRYDOM: About me being approached?

MR GAUNTLETT: Yes, that's what we're talking about, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Well, I didn't feel it right that anyone knew about it.

MR GAUNTLETT: Because clearly, on the face of it, it wasn't honest. Is that right?

MR STRYDOM: If - ja, that would be the answer.

MR GAUNTLETT: No further questions, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Before I call on you, Ms Batohi, just arising out of Mr Gauntlett's questions and your answer that you felt, I think the word you used was 'lighthearted', in the initial approach. When, if at all, did the realisation dawn on you that Cronje was serious?

MR STRYDOM: It's a difficult one to answer, 'cause there are a lot of thoughts that go through your mind. I mean, there are two ways - I thought maybe he could be joking or maybe he could have been serious, so there were a lot of thoughts that were going through my mind at that stage. But I know when I left the room I felt good about myself, saying 'No'.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Batohi.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BATOHI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Strydom, just going back to that Test at Centurion between South Africa and England, you've dealt with it in your statement, and on page 3 of your statement, paragraph 6.2, you state the following:

"On the morning of the fifth day of the Test, Hansie Cronje, the Captain, suggested that we should declare our innings on a certain total, which would give the English side something to chase in a realistic number of overs."

So do you accept then that that suggestion came from Hansie Cronje, that there should be a declaration?

MR STRYDOM: I'm sure he would have discussed it with the team - with The Management, maybe with the Coach, but I mean, we got it from him.

MS BATOHI: Yes, he was the one that conveyed it to the team.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: You also state in your statement, paragraph 6.4 - well, in your evidence you said that:

"Before the game Hansie wanted to know what the odds were for South Africa to win."

You statement is somewhat different. It says that:

"Hansie Cronje, in a conversation with me, said that he wondered what the odds would be - he wondered what odds could be obtained on a bet that the game would produce a result."

MR STRYDOM: It was never before the game. It was after the decision had been made to declare.

MS BATOHI: Alright, so at whatever stage. But my question to you is that, what he wanted you to do was to get odds on a bet that the game would produce a result, that's what's in your statement. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And then your statement goes on to say that you told Cronje you knew someone who was a reasonably active gambler, and you'd phone him to:

"Ascertain whether odds could be obtained from bookmakers on a bet of this nature. Cronje told me that if I could get reasonable odds, then I should bet R50 for him on South Africa winning the Test."

So I just want to get this absolutely clear, that when you first called what you had to get odds on was on the fact that there would be a result.

MR STRYDOM: Get odds on a result for South Africa to win, ja.

MS BATOHI: Well, that's not your statement. That's not what's in your statement. Your statement says that:

"He wondered what odds could be obtained on a bet that the game would produce a result."

Look at paragraph 6.4. And it's different.

MR STRYDOM: I know that Hansie wanted to be for South Africa to win.

MS BATOHI: Yes. But you must just answer my question. When you phoned to get the odds, the odds wasn't on a bet that South Africa would win. You were trying to get odds on the game producing a result. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's correct, ja.

MS BATOHI: In your statement you then deal with the Indian tour, and the incident that you've testified about when Cronje came to your room, and as you say, jokingly said you could receive 70 000 if the South African team scored no more than 250 runs.

You then go on to say at 7.3 that:

"Cronje was acting a very jovial and joking fashion. I knew him to be something of a practical joker."

But do you also accept that if someone is broaching something like this, which is inherently wrong with somebody else, for example with you, he didn't know what your reaction was going to be to that, isn't that so?

MR STRYDOM: I don't think so, no.

MS BATOHI: And it would have been very foolish of him to come seriously to you, and say, 'Look' - discuss it in all seriousness and then try to get some sort of reply from you, isn't that so?

MR STRYDOM: If that was the case, it would be, ja.

MS BATOHI: So one can ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: In other words, he was floating the thought across to you, it sounds to me from your evidence. Would that be correct?

MR STRYDOM: Well, I took him in a bit - in a jovial way. I don't know what his intentions were.

MS BATOHI: Please bear with me, Mr Commissioner.

When Mr Cronje at some later stage, passed you, as you state in page 4, at paragraph 7.6, and in passing said to you:

"How about 140? And I said, 'No way.'"

Did you still think that he was just joking with you?

MR STRYDOM: That second time we met was even more jovial than the first time. Well, to me it came across that way. It was just a nudge in the ribs, and 'How about 149?', and he just laughed.

COMMISSIONER: Not so much is it the manner in which it was conveyed to you, but the substance of what was put to you. Did that not occur to you to be something serious, even if it was given jokingly?

MR STRYDOM: If I think now, you probably think it's serious, but at the time I thought it was - I mean, I took it lightheartedly.

MS BATOHI: Mr Strydom, you testified that Mr Cronje said to you that you could receive 70 000 is the South African team scored no more than 250 runs. How could you have played any part in that? Let's assume you agreed. I know it might be - well, speculation or with hindsight, but if he came to you and said, 'Look, the team has to make less than 250 runs', what would your part have been? Were you selected as a batsman or a bowler?

MR STRYDOM: I'm a batsman who can bowl a bit.

MS BATOHI: How could you have assisted in any way?

MR STRYDOM: Well, I suppose I would just have to get no runs. Try and get as little - I don't know if he ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: You would have been expected to throw your wicket away, surely.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct. Probably.

MS BATOHI: You never got to that because you dismissed the idea.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: After the whole thing broke, and you say at page 6, paragraph 8.3, you telephoned:

"Hansie Cronje to ask him what was happening, and he said to me that the furore was about one-day internationals and had nothing to do with the Tests."

Did he explain that further? What did he mean by that?

MR STRYDOM: No. I think I knew what he meant. What I thought he meant was about the Tests that he had spoken to me about.

MS BATOHI: I don't follow that. Can you just explain that? What did he mean by that?

MR STRYDOM: No, because he just said that the one-dayers, they were mentioning the one-dayers, they were talking about the one-dayers, the third and the fifth one-dayers, in India, and I wasn't involved and I was never approached for those one-dayers, and he said it had nothing to do with the first Test. That's when he approached me, for the first Test.

MS BATOHI: That's what he said? He said it had nothing to do with the first Test, and that's why you shouldn't worry about it?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry. He just said, 'It's got nothing to do with you, or the Tests.' That's how I took it.

MS BATOHI: At page 7 of your statement, paragraph 9.5, you say you spoke to Mr Goolam Rajah, and you advised him that you had been approached by Cronje before the first Five-day Test in Mumbai:

"But I thought at the time that Cronje was joking."

Can I infer from that, that you don't think that any more?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you repeat that?

MS BATOHI: In that statement you say, in that paragraph, that at that time you thought that Cronje was joking. Does that mean that at this point in time you don't think it was joke any more?

MR STRYDOM: Well, it's difficult - I'd have to speculate then, but with what's been going on, it doesn't sound too good, no.

MS BATOHI: I've no more questions, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Sackstein?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SACKSTEIN: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Strydom, at paragraph 6.4, you say the following:

"Shortly after the decision had been made to declare",

do I understand you to mean that the declaration was a fait accompli already?

MR STRYDOM: The declaration had ...(intervention)

MR SACKSTEIN: Had taken place in other words.

MR STRYDOM: No, the declaration hadn't taken place, but the decision had been made that we were going to declare.

MR SACKSTEIN: And that was to be the arrangement, that it would - there would be a declaration and the matter would proceed in the hopes that the result could be obtained?

MR STRYDOM: No, but we could win the Test.

MR SACKSTEIN: Yes, but there were four possible results, weren't there? Win, a lose, a draw, or a tie.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MR SACKSTEIN: So, there was no doubt in anybody's mind that a declaration had been decided upon already.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. And the discussion with regard to placing a bet was only made after that decision had been made, not in anticipation of it.

MR STRYDOM: It was afterwards.

MR SACKSTEIN: Let's just talk briefly about this discussion in your hotel room at Mumbai. Mr Cronje you say approached you, you thought perhaps jokingly, perhaps not. You're, as we sit here now, still uncertain as to what he actually meant, whether he was serious or not. Is that so?

MR STRYDOM: Well, sorry can you repeat that?

MR SACKSTEIN: Even now, as we sit here, there's no certainty in your mind as to whether the approach was serious or was not serious.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you ask that again, sorry.

MR SACKSTEIN: Let's try again. You're uncertain, or unable to give a definitive answer, a definite answer, yes or no, as to whether he was serious.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MR SACKSTEIN: It's far-fetched, don' you think, to be able to manipulate the result of a game, a Five-day Test match, or manipulate the number of runs scoring in an innings in a Five-day Test match, only with the connivance of one other player, so that just two of you are just privy to it.

MR STRYDOM: I would think so, ja.

MR SACKSTEIN: It would seem to indicate that he can hardly hope to achieve that if 9 other players have no knowledge of it, isn't that so?

MR STRYDOM: I agree.

MR SACKSTEIN: You never mentioned this discussion that you and Hansie had to Management during the tour, did you?

MR STRYDOM: No.

MR SACKSTEIN: At paragraph 8.3, you say:

"As far as I can recall, Dr Bacher gave me a short statement to give to the Press if I was approached."

What did that statement say? What did he suggest you say?

MR STRYDOM: Is this on the Friday, on the 7^th you mean?

MR SACKSTEIN: Indeed.

MR STRYDOM: I can't remember it. It was something to the effect of I categorically deny ever being involved in match-fixing.

MR SACKSTEIN: That was what Dr Bacher suggested you say.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct. Something to those lines.

MR SACKSTEIN: This meeting that you had at Dr Bacher's house, let's just identify the people there. It was you and Dr Bacher, we know who he is. Richard Harrison, who is he?

MR STRYDOM: He's a member of the Exec - I didn't know that at that stage, but I was told.

MR SACKSTEIN: Clifford Green, who is he?

MR STRYDOM: He's the lawyer from the UCB.

MR SACKSTEIN: For the UCB.

MR STRYDOM: For the UCB, ja.

MR SACKSTEIN: If one looks at the questions posed to you that day, a quick count indicates there were 29 questions asked. It would seem that Mr Green was the main inquisitor because he asked 17 of the questions. Was he in fact asking the most questions?

MR STRYDOM: If I can recall it correctly, that's right, ja.

MR SACKSTEIN: Thank you, Mr Commissioner.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GAUNTLETT: Mr Commissioner, may I with your leave, just ask one aspect which arises from Mr Sackstein's questions?

Mr Strydom, it was put to you by Mr Sackstein, it would be very difficult I think, to fix a match if it only involved two players. We of course have never seen any statement to this Commission by Mr Cronje in contrast to all the other participants, and nothing has ever been positively put as to what he will say, but would you - are you able to help us in this regard? Do you know whether Mr Cronje did or didn't approach other people on this occasion, in the same way that he approached you?

MR STRYDOM: I know that he approached Mark Boucher and Jacques Kallis. But I only knew that when I came back here, I didn't know anything when I was on tour. I thought that I was the only guy that he'd approached.

MR GAUNTLETT: And it was after this approach about which it's been put to you, you're undecided as to whether it was joking or not, that you spoke softly to Mr Cronje, is that right, at the end of the day. It was after this approach as to which you say you really are uncertain as to whether it's joking or not, that you spoke softly to Mr Cronje at the end of that day, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, can you just repeat.

MR GAUNTLETT: I think the thing we have to clear up once and for all, Mr Strydom, because I'm not sure what you're saying, is this. You have said that at the end of the day you reverted to Mr Cronje and you spoke to him softly. Correct?

MR STRYDOM: At the end of the day?

MR GAUNTLETT: After the game.

MR STRYDOM: I did speak to him after the game, and I did say that - I didn't necessarily mean softly, I meant that no one else could hear.

MR GAUNTLETT: Do we have to go through it again? You did that because you didn't want anybody to hear because it might not be honest. Is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, ja.

MR GAUNTLETT: Thank you very much, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: May I just also ask you a question, Mr Strydom, dealing with that particular match? Now in form it may have been a Five-day Test, in substance what happened on the fifth day by reason of the rain that had taken place on the second, third and fourth day, this was a one-dayer, was it not?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, it turned out to be sort of like a one-dayer.

COMMISSIONER: I mean, that's really what it was, although the end result produced a result of a Five-day Test, it was one side batting and the other side batting.

MR STRYDOM: Correct.

COMMISSIONER: And the side that scored the most runs was the winner.

MR STRYDOM: Correct.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Fitzgerald?

MR FITZGERALD: I have no re-examination.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Fitzgerald.

WITNESS EXCUSED: